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B'wood Bob

Bloodlines

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B'wood Bob    5

As a newbie could someone give some advice on bloodlines please. I was wondering how careful I need to be in terms of getting juvenile frogs from one seller as they're most likely to be brother n sisters, and so will be inbreeding should they go on to reproduce. Obviously I need to be careful to get frogs of the same type/form, but not sure how careful I need to be about mixing bloodlines, and whether different species are better able to cope, or not able to cope at all, with a degree of inbreeding. Any help greatly appreciated or personal experiences on the effects of limited genetic diversity on the frogs' development.

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gouldianmax    406

Hi Bob

This is one of those topics that some people are really passionate about, and some people are not really bothered. The following is just my personal opinion.

Whenever possible Itry to constantly bring frogs into my frogroom from different sources and even different countries. I bought 2 male and 2 female yellow terribilis 3 years ago from 4 different people, and 3 different countries hoping this would help produce healthy offspring. This has worked for me and i have bred a lot of very healthy frogs from this group. I try to do this with all of my frogs whenever possible.

Unfortunately as far as i am led to believe, some of the types of dartfrogs come from a very small gene pool so even buying from different people and different countries may not guarantee unrelated stock.

I would rather not breed brothers and sisters together wherever possible, trying not to weaken bloodlines doing this. But again, a lot of livestock is line bred so does this make any difference?

I dont know, but if i had the choice I would still try to buy from different sources.

 

Please note this is only my own observations from several years of breeding dartfrogs... I am no expert and am not looking to argue this opinion one way or another. You make your own decisions based on what you read or are told or find out for yourself.

 

regards

 

Gordon

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Meefloaf    84

Gordon, I'm thinking of buying some mysties later this year and it's something i've been mulling over, I'd love to have different bloodlines, but i'll be looking at getting a fair few, looking at getting from at least two people (unfortunately the two people i know who have mysties, well Stu sold J the frogs lol so will have to find other source). I'd prefer not to have say three vivs with the frogs in seperate from each seller etc. but know this is the safest way to do it, they'd have to have a quarantine period anyway i know. any advice you could give me on this

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Mantas    207

John, what about my leucomelas? If I got juvelines from same parents, 7 of them, so breeding them, will make weak frogs?

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Milesw    191

i haven't been a keeper for years like some of the others,but i try to look up and read papers and discuss subjects like this with other more experienced keepers and i was discussing this with a friend of mine not that long ago, here is what he said on the matter,

 

'Apparently scientific work was done about inbreeding of frogs and apparently there is no signs after nearly 150!! generations of bad effect?, not sure about the published reference at the moment.'

 

'I just checked some older posts on other forums, regarding inbreed, from some breeders in Germany and basically every one has a different opinion in this and most of the people believe that malformation are coming from bad food/lights etc. - and this is the reason why they want new blood in their breeds to balance this a bit out- but some has healthy frogs in the F18! and now the frogs are even more stable and bigger! then the starting breeding pair. wow wow lots of interesting aspects and difficult to say what is true or not. I believe after some 4-5 generations it would be good for " new blood" if specimens available. Looks like this is a discussion since years in forums and people got different experiences- if you google a bit you will find lots of posts about it.'

 

take what you will from that, do some research online, but like Gordon says its a subject with a lot of controversy and i don't think there is much proof for it being a bad idea, but in the best case scenario try and diversify your lines if possible.

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gouldianmax    406

Hi Meefloaf

                   Like i said earlier everyone has differnt opinions on this topic. Regards Mysties, personally i love them and they are one of my favourite dartfrogs...but I can not even keep them alive. They are the only dartfrog I have had any bother wit and would nt dare ever to buy any again. Just to explain to you I bought 10 youngsters from supposed different sources and all of them died over approx. 3 months. I paid £90 each for these a few years ago now when certain dartfrogs were much costlier than they are now. So you can see i lost a lot of money. The person i bought these from kindly gave me another 10 young mysties free to replace these. So i put them in 3 different vivs at different heights (equals different temps) in my frog room and... within 3 months all were dead again. I even seen one die in front of me as if it were taking a fit. All had been perfectly healthy beforehand

Now my own conclusions were that they were from poor stock and died of something i could not prevent. I put other frogs in these 3 empty vivs after the mysties had died and never lost any and all bred successfully.

I personally feel the gene pool with mysties is absolutely tiny because as far as i am aware none have ever been exported from their country of origin legally ever, and all subsequent frogs have been line bred from the original smuggled small group of frogs. So in my opinion, even if you buy these from different people in this country you cannot say for definite they are from different bloodlines. Some people like Stu have been very successful with these, but he has had to use special measures in his breeding techniques to raise them successfully. Good luck with them.

 

regards

 

Gordon

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Stu    426

It is damn complex all this. My first group of frogs leucs are a group of brothers and sisters,I have no problems hatching their eggs or rearing them.But it isn't an ideal situation   That aside I think anyone trying to get unrelated stock to make up a breeding group is on the right track. Gordon I agree completely with you first post,hmm you also know how sad the mystie story made me feel,absolutely gutted for you . As I see it with any dart our biggest problem is actually tracking anything back to confirm unrelated stock,our record keeping isn't the best,for sure. Actually I think we have a real chance to do something right with the WC pums morphs,it might be worth setting up a separate thread to debate that subject. I'm  concerned that some morphs in the wild are being over collected,I think it's incredibly important we as a group make efforts to fix them here, by working together.

 

Gordon ,I strongly suspect you are right about the mystie gene pool,we actually have 3 said different lines in our breeding group. But how limited were the numbers of original smuggled frogs,I just have no idea. Something we have done has meant we do really well with them,despite maybe a small genetic pool to draw on.

 

I guess in the wild frogs must inbreed to a certain level to actually form all these morphs of a species,but we have the wild natural selection constantly at work keeping the frogs strong,something we do not have in captivity. 

 

To the op,you need to be very sure that the specific morph you buy from different breeders,if that is the approach you take are the same morph.but that will always be tricky with where we are now with so few records. Also making things harder is the simple fact that with so many different species and morphs of darts in our hobby,frogs are actually getting mixed up,misidentified misnamed. I have two personal experiences if this..

 

  So simply put for me try to outcross to unrelated bloodlines of the same morph if you can. Be aware of QT for those separate frogs when you get them.But I wish we had better records to dig into.

 

Stu    .

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Nick    447

i'll be honets, the posts above have put me off Mysties a bit

What! I bred quite a few mysties a while back with no issues they were sourced orginaly from dart frog and Germans I was so impressed with the young I kept one back so I can start keeping them again at some point. I have kept quite a few frogs over the years and these are still on the top of my list.

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Meefloaf    84

i do really like them, and i had the pleasure of seeing cornish J's mysties he got from Stu, they are gorgeous and soooo bold.

my worry is, I want to get a largish group and for the best of the group would need it to be at least from two different suppliers, as mentioned, harder to get two seperate bloodlines in these. although i'm sure all bloodlines have probably mixed over at some stage and most frogs being bred (depsite lack of paperwork) probably be linked back to brothers and sisters

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gouldianmax    406

Sorry If i have put you off keeping mysties. Please dont let anyone, myself included, stop you from keeping any type of dartfrog. i just tried to let you know how difficult it can be sometimes keeping certain frogs.

Sorry again.

 

regards

 

Gordon

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Meefloaf    84

No, it's fine Gordon, i need to hear every experience, good or bad. Kinda like if i wanted Auratus and nobody told me that they can be shy etc, i'd panic and dig up the enclosure lol. I thank you for your input on these frogs, like i said, i do like them, but the bloodline does worry me, at the same time how "pure" are any of the frogs that we keep ? i know most other species came from a wider pool of wc frogs.

basically Frogs are similar to the royal family lol

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gouldianmax    406

The most worrying thing for me when i had mysties, apart from seeing £1800 worth of frogs die, was the fact that they all looked healthy when i got them and right up until they died.

The final straw for me was when one of them died whilst i was watching it. It just seemed to have a fit then dropped down dead. That is why i have never bought anymore. I will stick to my terribilis and other dartfrogs which are bullet proof.

 

regards

 

Gordon

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Paul Howarth    269

.......i do like them, but the bloodline does worry me.....

I think your over worrying a little on the bloodlines? If it's a species you really like then go for it! I do agree completely that, if possible, we should try to breed unrelated stock but the simple fact is that it's either not always possible or you'd have to aquire overseas frogs but as Gordon mentioned just because you buy from someone abroad doesn't necessarily prove their not related? Your not going to do any harm by having a crack at buying and breeding mysties (except the large damage to your wallet? lol)!

I think Gordon had a very unlucky experience with them and as bad as it was there are keepers who have had great results. It could have been any number of factors that killed Gordon's frogs and we'll probably never know?

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