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auratusross

The Red Frog Story

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auratusross    126

A new video of Red frog beach bastimentos in their natural habitat and the issues they and the island are facing due to human intervention.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO8jAditfAk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO8jAditfAk

 

The website also 

 

https://sites.google.com/site/redfrogstory/home/the-film

 

Regards, Ross

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Stu    426

Ross,hey bro how ya doing,buddy?

 

  All one's fears realized but still hope. :(   You know how special these guys are to me mate and I guess there are musings out there of my worries when we first got them and how I so wanted to do something with them,because of my fears over the development,I had no idea about the trash problems though.

 

     Many males came in mate very few females in a way i'm part of this don't this smack of your galacs buddy. My frogs came from there and now there are so few left break's my heart mate. Many thanks for sharing this Ross , you have a very sad guy posting here,this has really knocked me mate. I'm struggling to write really kiddo,just gutted.

 

How can one justify keeping when they might be in dire straights in the wild, and in the same breath feel relief, almost, that at least some are here somewhat safe,many emotions mate. What's the right thing here,being part of the reduction in numbers for the captive trade...pets.... or feeling that something bad might just really happen and then being among very few here holding a frog that might be all but gone with that hope caviat just teetering on the brink for the wild frogs. Knowing I don't have a real sound base for a gene pool just outcross males,yet seeing little tiny things fall from broms on a regular basis now, each one is hope,but never for the wild. 

 

i'm at a loss what to say really mate....sad times

 

Stu

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auratusross    126

No worries Alex.

 

Im good thanks Stu, hope your well! 

 

As your aware, calling males would be much easier to spot when out collecting leading to male heavy imports of wild caught frogs. Although if collected several years ago this surprises me, as surely if you literally had to watch your step then I would of thought the imports would be much more even in sexes.

 

We are often led to believe that many frogs have been able to thrive in disturbed habitats and utilize "trash" as breeding sites.....clearly not the case here.

 

Another thing i noticed is the narrator saying something along the line of "they are trying to drown the other frog" when wrestling. Yes this could potentially happen but i dont believe it to be the aim of the frogs in my personal opinion. 

 

I see the correlation you make between the galacs and the situation these frogs now find themselves in. Some similarities, although i doubt there is some kid next to a dam threatening to kill them unless they get a fiver (sad world we live in) When all is said and done I am glad to see both in captivity and anybody keeping red frog beach bastimentos from legal collections prior to development on the island should not feel guilt like you mention in my opinion. Although I hope they "do best" with the frogs they have. 

 

I would love to have a drink at that blokes cafe one day and i respect whats hes done for the frogs...but then again surely that would that make me part of the issue or maybe not? Is it the developers or the tourists, both go hand in hand.... matter of opinion i suppose. Like you say its a tough one... but either way yet again humans are the issue and im guilty of being one of them! 

 

Regards Ross

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Tappers    47

This was quite an education - it mirrors the situation of many ornamental fish, where a surprising number of familiar species are threatened or extinct in the wild.

 

For me, it seems to reinforce the priority of keeping these frogs viable and diverse as a captive population. As a few projects have shown with a range of species, frogs can be good candidates for the kind of reintroduction schemes that big mammals etc aren't. I've noticed with Mysties in some quarters a tendency for the captive population to be regarded as some kind of dirty by-product of smuggling (which for the record I wholly condemn!) and what seems to be a belief that we shouldn't be keeping and breeding them. As private enthusiasts with the skills and resources to breed these frogs, it's important that people do so - not only to thwart the temptation of illegal trade but to secure a future for the frogs either in the hobby, or as a potential gene bank.

 

Going back to an aquatic example, consider the Zebra plec (Hypancistrus zebra). I've seen this fish enter the trade as an expensive rarity, become a commonly-imported staple and then the subject of an export ban. The same government that imposed this ban then came close to destroying its only native home by building the Belo Monte dam. Were it not for the existence of captive bred animals, there'd be smuggling (via Peru) and very nearly extinction in the wild and in captivity.

 

Sorry for the self-righteous pontification but I think this is an area where private keepers can make a difference..

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Stu    426

Ross,Paul little time just breif,just a couple of points for the mo. Ross for me the guy at the cafe is the hero in all this(possible different morph?) and also presents for me at least that possible symbiosis of tourism and ecological gain,sure i'm human too and as outlined struggle with self guilt at times. But to me having a coffee with the dude from Argentinia is all win the stronger he is maybe more land might come to him he certainly looks like a good custodian of his little ex farm.

 

Yup I also was lead to believe that trash oft enhanced pum populations more depo sites,but a singualrly horrible way of environment enhancement in both our eyes I guess.

 

The kids threating to kill if they don't get money the locals opinion of trash is hard for us western folks to comprehend,mind we just expect someone to turn up and take our trash away away. We I suppose are somewhat superficial with our outlook we don't see what we really are doing and despite the upserge in green issuses  here it's difficult for me to judge those locals whom only had biodegradable trash just years back..Obviously it needs to change but how??

 

Cheers buddy always appreciate your thoughts as well as this video that has kicked my ass, I don't have to agree with someone to respect them mate not that there is much we are disagreeing on here tis just sad !1

 

Paul great post bro I can't see the self rightous pontification ,seems like a lot of sense if we could but measure up !! I personally feel so sad that  in all this I am it's tricky being rational,cheers for you thoughts mate. I see little chance of building a gene pool from what is in blighty,leastways what I believe to be in blighty,but of course we are just one small section of the hobby. I'm sure with help we will have a viable pop here for maybe 20years  who knows, how does one go about long term stability and predict viability over time. But mate if I am right in what I saw and I believe I have studied most of them ,the female shortage is desparate with this particular morph here in blighty, Leastways i'm talking about those 2012 imports,  many of those spare males I have already lost track of try as I might to keep a handle on that it's very difficult Keepers come and go

 

I know there are reintroduction programmes in the making for phibs the mountain chicken project.being worked up by some of the zoos here being amongst the most well know,but obviously morphs of pums are barely recognised by even cities I am utterly without a clue as to how they would be regarded by zoological institutions. Private keepers don't ever seem to be part of this type of concept,but you are right in that we are working things out and are getting results I just don't see us ever being part of release programmes,Mate we barely QT here do you think we and our little contribution could ever be more than a bunch of pet keepers and really taken seriously? Even the pan golden frog now residing in institutions(A zetki)  hasn't yet been returned due to the threat of Bd I guess. I just can't at this time ever see a day where the hobby we partake in will ever be taken seriously mate or that any of my or anyone else's frogs might be progenitors to stock that will be returned to the wild. 

 

     But slow but sure RFB are growing in number here, and there are surely more girls now in this collection than I ever dared hope for. For so long this was a knife edge one lass please don't let anything horrible happen after I lost the other to bloat......... 2012-2016 tis a slow road mate  Had to bung something positive in all this dispare 

 

Lads must go wrote an essay and will pay for that tomorrow

 

take care thanks muchly

 

Stu

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auratusross    126

I think Tappers makes a great example using the Zebra Plec. Re introduction of a frog bred by a hobbyist is extremely unlikely to say the least in my opinion.The potential for captivity to be the only place to see them in years to come, is a real issue with a large number of species we successfully keep as hobbyists whether fish or frog though!

 

Anyone seen any in situ pictures of an Highland Sirensis or even an Azureus lately?

 

Just because a frog is bred in abundance in the hobby, it doesnt mean they are abundant in the wild. Vice versa too, a rare frog in hobby terms, may be abundant in the wild. 

 

As we have seen with the Red frog beach and Tappers fish example, this can rapidly change in the wild due to a number of pressures, anything from human intervention such as a holiday resort or Dam or something such as disease eg Bd or even both! Its a scary thought of how rapidly things can negatively change in the wild and it takes many more years to recover, if thats even possible!

 

We see trends in the hobby also! Many species have been the "in" thing to have, bred in numbers, dropped in price and not been regarded in the same way as before and seemingly dwindled in numbers and availability to the point of being considered "rare" again....Orange Terribilis?

 

Too often we see one or two successful people originally breeding certain species such as ameerega bassleri sisa, ranitomeya reticulata, Adelphobates Castaneoticus and people obtaining their breeding stock from one or even the only available person here. Leading to worries of the possibilities of obtaining unrelated pairings. Where do we go for that? Europe? the wild? But what if thats no longer viable? But then people dont seem to bother and it leads to the above example or severe inbreeding which may or may not become an issue in several years with certain species. 

 

Yet again RECORD KEEPING is key in my opinion! But not only that, people like yourselves passionate about what they keep and whenever possible people keeping more than one unrelated pairings of a morph to help in any way possible with the gene pool. Why? Not because what we keep is "going back" anytime soon but because there just may not be be any more "coming here" either. And sooner or later what we keep in captivity may be the only representatives left! (I truly hope not) If that was the case, would in a number of years re introduction be spoken about with captive populations from hobbyists....hmm....maybe.....just maybe but i still have my doubts.

 

Are we some sort of Saviors, or herpetologists keeping a species alive.....nope....just hobbyists with a passion and skills learnt to keep and breed the creatures we enjoy. Among ourselves we can create the "purity" we desire to keep as close a slice of nature in our homes as we see fit though. We have created our own standards as a hobby such as anti hybridization, preference on unrelated pairings, keeping localities separate etc but there is always room for improvement in all aspects of husbandry. 

 

I just think documentaries like this can hit home the importance of continuing with trying to improve and find new ways of doing this. The monetary value of a frog and popularity in captivity does not always represent the rarity and problems it is facing in the wild. Valuing everything equally when it comes to husbandry/record keeping will make the hobby a better one in my opinion.

 

 

Regards, Ross

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