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gouldianmax

Tips On Keeping Mysties?

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gouldianmax    396

Anyone got any tips on keeping / breeding mysties please? I have kept and bred a wide range of dartfrogs but had a bad experience with mysties and lost all of mine. Looking to possibly get a pair or trio again and am looking for tips from people who have kept and bred them successfully.

 

regards

 

Gordon

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Meefloaf    84

hey gordon, Mike asked me to have a word with you. Firstly, i'd always suggest talking to Stu, having visited Stu and witnessed the detail that he puts in to keeping his frogs he has more than steered me in to a way of thinking and researching. we've often waxed lyrical on builds and how to create a crevice of certain frogs habitat's. i had mine up until recently for a yr in a very very large rub, got it from wilko's for 9 quid and cubic wise same as a 60cm cube viv. the male called often but nothing, they were in this viv whilst i got theirs sorted out, i put them into the viv and within a day they were in the film cannister having some fun, i lost those egg's but they were mine and i believe the frogs first.

my viv was originally designed to house my leucs but the mysties needed moving, the viv has both rocks and lots of climbing available for them and they appear to love it

IMG_0654_zpsqytpiv9l.jpg

IMG_0655_zpsxv134egj.jpg

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Meefloaf    84

sorry Gord, yesterdays post was sponsored by cider lol. I keep my mysties on the bottom shelf of my viv as they do like cooler conditions. in regards to breeding i believe that more misting and food tends to spur them on and they'll breed a fair bit, i remember having conversations with Stu where he had to slow down his misting to try and stop them overbreeding.

As for UV, you know all the classic arguments but i would provide some source of uv for them due to a section of their wild populous being on a cliff face

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Tappers    47

I recycle my lizard T5s above the frogs but I found a bit of overhead cover in the shape of a chunky brom made mine a bit more confident. They also get to choose their own level of exposure too. Mine definitely seem rather terrestrial - something that a few sources contradict when I was doing my research. As ever, the best thing was seeing Stu the oracle :)

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Stu    426

You guys,bless....man I'm just a humble mad man that keeps some spotty frogs. I don't honestly think I'm that guy but hey tis a frog I adore how could one not!!!

 

   Gordon in all reality I don't know what more I could give that we haven't done already. Yup to uvb providing some way of getting it to the frogs,they did react as Paul mentioned above when they first had their new light ,but settled with time. I also keep mine on the bottom level so in all reality the same as me leucs, Plausibly a pretty definitive conundrum there!

 

   Being incredibly blunt Gordon I feel your first take had something to do with frogs being moved to quickly after morphout,and bugger all to do with you, honestly mate I have never thought otherwise. Unfortunately I get  to pick these probs up Gordon , with new folks, they come to me on mysties, and they are loosing them....it isn't easy mate really hard trying to help and watching them die. I suppose it's similar to the above where the lads have mentioned me to talk to, but for me there is a clear pattern.don't move them early in their lives.

 

Mate no doubt in my mind these can easily be overfed,I feel their metabolism is very efficient and their movement is part of this be aware when rearing. They are complete buggers to stop breeding,they need real pulling back on water and food and seriously watching during this because it is harsh but so far so good all my originals are still here. Gordon I say harsh we are looking at one mist one feed a week at the zenith of this,provision of water in case they need to rehydrate is paramount I'm hopefully on the way to steering a member here through this,his frogs seem to have responded very well,fingers crossed because stopping them for me at least is not easy.

 

Gordon I'd also watch the heat in early stages of life, keep them down low in your room.

They are the one frog we start dense in number we split that group after a few weeks tis all about weight watching I can't emphasize enough to not get then too fat,it's so damn easy with these .

 

I can't tell you how much I'd love to see you get these going buddy,maybe I'm just sad because they give me so much. But i've always wanted you to have another crack at them and share what we see and get from them

 

 

       We haven't reared any in a goodly while and now have a few on the go again,ahh mate they are already being silly and looking up at us when feeding such a bold frog that seem to really have a soft spot for humans,I just don't know how else to describe it  but simply put, they like us!!  Have a good free draining sub ,plenty of leaves so a dry footfall no eco earth in subs holds way too much water.  Start tads on low protein or maybe better put small feeds of plant based,good hunters of wild live grub as tads but will refuse some foods. climbing frame in viv,well what can I say Joe's pics show it B)  design it to make them work and keep fit. 

 

Finally ya know me mate, anything that can be done to help you get there this time just ask,I don't think I'm the mystie guy just got lucky tis all!!  But if I can do anything please ask...... the last time frankly broke both our hearts to see you pondering another crack is so bloody fantastic for me, They are such wonderful little guys to care for,I'm pretty desperate for you to share in that,although i'd never push you there after what you went through....but I'd be lying if I said I hadn't waited for this.

 

Oh,Vit A every two weeks repashy ;)

 

Just shout bro  if there is anything at all,just shout

 

best always

 

Stu 

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gouldianmax    396

Cheers Stu.

After reading up more on these and asking a lot more questions i will only be getting some more mysties if i can get some well grown on youngsters or adults as several people have told me that they do not like being moved too early in life.

It still puzzles me that several sources still advertise them for sale at around the 3 month old mark, yet i now think that is far too early.

I still think the gene pool for these is very small compared to a lot of other dartfrogs and feel i would like mixed bloodlines in a group if i managed to find any for sale when i am ready for them. I am busy changing viv interiors around at present and have sold several of my breeding stock of dartfrogs. I will be concentrating on dartfrogs i have not bred before after this year and will be focussed on breeding a lot less quantity and therefore will be concentrating on just a few of the many dartfrogs in our hobby.

 

regards

 

Gordon

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Stu    426

You are utterly welcome good sir :D

 

Gordon some how I became aware of this "not to move too young thing" quite early on after us having them. I think it might have come from a friend in EU I can't recollect exactly. Ours, having all be bought as adults all was well,again a case of luck I guess. Then we started breeding and sure I went there with the uvb over tads an' all and it all dropped into place,much to my complete amazement. Not one has left here under six months and many actually at breeding age,I have one loss to date that I know of,I feel I am to blame for that. A really good friend had arranged to come up and one frog became listless the day before,I think she was just about to lay might of been egg bound,I  told my mate and we had a chat about it and decided she would move with the others,unfortunately that was a mistake ,MY MISTAKE, I shouldn't have let her go,she haunts me, a horrendous blunder on my part!!  I'm not easy on myself on these things mate.

 

     I've picked up many cases of young frogs being moved and then one by one dying,over the years. I fight for them with their new owner,whom in every case seemed to be doing all the right things but the sad end is horrible Gordon,I can't help it but I find it so hard :( .  I'd like to see none of this species moved under 6 months,for me that is the ballpark. I know i'm a bit this way with all our frogs I want them big and strong for the next guy and for the frog in question,withing reason I believe the odds of survival after a move are enhanced as the months pass,at least to a certain extent.

 

    Gordon,when We started with mysties,we were told a morphout time of maybe a year was to be expected. But, the reality is 72-74F water temp good grub  right vits,uvb in parents and good grub for tads equal  a morphout time of 4 1/2 months!!!!! Folks were having horrendous problems with sls at that time,which is why I went out there with the uvb etc.  It was almost the norm back then it's only  4 years or so back to have 60 or so tads fail before a good un morphed due to sls.  But i really feel this has changed now. Folks don't talk on sls in mysties so much now,and i'm pretty sure the gene pool if anything has got smaller,Well, put it this way I'd be gutted if there is new blood here and although the brit hobby don't care all that much I really don't think more have come in,no money in 'em. So, I suspect that either the frogs have adapted to captivity over the ensuring generations or simply put we have access to better methods of care,better lighting better vits ,vit A huh ;) .  Generations of adaption haven't had time to manifest themselves really so what's happened???  

 

Mysties can be incredibly prolific if done , (yee gads this is awkward) ,right.  They need that down time it's tricky to implement ,but I believe they need a rest and the hardship benefits them,the easy way is to split ,but it don't stack up to me:frogs don't experience good times 24/7 in the wild,they have adapted over thousands of years to their niche,we should be trying to replicate nature,not fighting her.

 

So, basically what i'm saying is, they are not so much different to all our other frogs. Always go for unrelated if possible,if one can't then maybe it's not the end of the world. We have no heredity with the vast majority of stock kept here,but they do .  Ha and so can the mysties,don't move them early please,is my plea. Keep 'em to six months,if ya don't have means to keep them that long ,don't set so many eggs.

 

Buy some big frogs mate,track them if possible to get unrelated,but I don't believe that record system is here in UK   and have a ball with the most confiding frog. I can so go upstairs now and open a glass door "hey guys, how ya doing" will yield frogs appearing and moving towards me, same with little tiny things,one opens a tub and they look up not hide ooooorrrrraaaaaa dad and mum are here  is written on those tiny faces.

 

They are simply special friendly little folks,that back story is hugely sad,but they are here I'd urge anyone to keep,but know the past on these and make a hard choice. It is a hard choice seeing those frogs at Lima laid out dead, they haunt me on a huge level,but I can't turn the clock back. So we have what we have. As long as we the brit hobby work together I believe we need no more, tis down to us now to keep them here and work together to that end.

 

I think your goals are cool buddy,I feel the zenith is keepers working together,but we aren't there yet,so more than one breeding group in one guys hands is my take on fixing frogs in blightly.  This has to be over periods of time,the end game is providing unrelated stock to the next guy to breed from. But right now  here we are

 

belucky kiddo

 

Stu

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jone5    26

Hi everyone.

 

Stu has been helping me with trying to get my group 1.3.0 to take a break from breeding and so far so good! I've had one small clutch laid in 3.5 weeks which has been a massive improvement! I've had to freeze and dispose of a lot of eggs over the last few months, which has been a difficult thing to do.

I recently put up an advert on here and another forum for the sale of the froglets which I thought would be ready at the end of October (3 months ootw.). Reading this thread this evening has made me feel bad as I did not know that Mysti's shouldn't be sold until the 6 month mark. I am going to alter the adverts to reflect this.

 

Stu is right, these are special frogs indeed. I'm so glad I chose them for my first darts.

 

I'm afraid I'm a bit of a lurker/reader on the forums, I'll try to hang out a bit more and get to know you guys a bit better, just difficult with real life stuff.

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Stu    426

John,mate, I don't want you to feel bad on your sale,what I have expressed as a safe ball park for mysties,to move is part of a mind set I have for best practice. It is my personal feeling governed to a certain extent by keeping and wise words from others. Plus of course the really hard stuff, that i've outlined above.  John forums are where hopefully we get together, talk, air points of view. We share what we have learnt, our experiences. There is not a rule out there saying you shouldn't sell a mystie at a certain age,just a guy, ie me, musing what has happened to him and the best way forward for that particular frog. Somebody has to pass this stuff forwards bro for you to read or hear. Honestly mate how could you know if there was no body who told you of this plausible facet?  This is still your choice mate. A mate of mine has sold them younger without issue,his come from mine at least for some part,maybe again as outlined above things are slightly different now to when I started keeping,I dunno bro,I picked up a horrible case late last year I believe not so long ago,huh !!  So, my stance is still set at that 6 month ball park.

 

      I'll add this, you are one of very few who cares so much that he is worried about over breeding,I'm frantic busy and didn't get to you as soon as I really wanted to,(oh mate you are  so not alone there, tell me about the real life stuff) but you were so concerned you asked again, ha just as I was  about to start to muse all this with you,all credit mate.  So publicly I say stop worrying bro your bloody heart is in the right place we are all learning,nowt to worry on. All one can do is one's best for our froggy mates  and that is exactly what you are trying to do.

 

Nuff said John good luck with 'em, down time is not something a newer keeper ponders,we suddenly become aware after the bewilderment that they have bred and the tads hatch that they need to stop somehow.  With certain species I think this game is actually harder than getting the little rascals started 

 

belucky 

 

Stu

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kevindurose    111

What is the evidence for not moving young Mysties as it doesn't make sense to me. Are people keeping young Mysties in with the adults from the tadpole stage or are they being moved?

 

For many years folks were talking about the risks of moving adults female tincs based on the fact that the females have a fixed breeding territory which is defended against other females and become stressed if moved. In contrast to this males move around and are less susceptible to stress from a move. I have heard of losses of adults female tincs following a move but also moved quite a few without any problems.

As a personal preference I'm at odds with most people in that I'm of the firm opinion that frogs are better moved weeks rather than months after metamorphosis (when a lot of folks have them in rearing tubs rather than a large viv) as opposed to interrupting them mid way to adulthood moving them between vivs.

Just my opinion

Kev

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Stu    426

Valid opinion Kev B) . I'll debate it with ya mate evidence being largely already above ,but to sum up:.  Reported to me years back that mysties needed to build some size before a move and many perished  when moved as young froglets,damned if I can recollect the source ,but I'm sure a frogger in EU that had kept them some good time. Personal experiences of having folks pointed toward me as a possible source of help because newly aquired frogs of a young age were dying. Plus folks contacting me directly.  Had an adult female tinc moved here without issue.

 

 Kev,honestly there could be any reason for frogs being lost after a move,I'm a realist mate this is a tough time I feel for them. It could be caused by any number of issues,but too many mystie cases at this age for me to not be concerned and voice that point of view. Kev I'm a soft git anyway ,but I have a real soft spot for this particular frog ha they have put me through the mill a bit too. So I find trying to help someone through these times and failing very hard  but I'll try and lay that side of it away. Some of these guys I regard as very good experienced keepers they are not all beginners. Gordon above whose thread this is I feel knows his stuff, he has way more experience than I, jees I'm sure he kept darts for ten years before we started. But, this one frog, god we talked on this mate, he had a horrible time with. My conclusion is age of frogs moved was the reason, Gordon I hope you don't mind any of this ,you have been very open about what happened .

 

Kev ,I rear in tubs,they ain't the ideal situation,they are practical and they work . I rear some damn good frogs in them,that is hard mate I'm nowt special, but I can . I try to follow up with anyone that has had stock from me and these older frogs across the board are doing mate,I'm not getting losses,the only one across red frog beach cemetery bastis Dt attachibakka auratus super blue and panama special,red heads ,leucs azzies is the mystie I mentioned above. So releasing older frogs for me is working time and again. But if I could rear all in vivs, and I have given this some  deep thought I think I could take it up a notch, What I can't work out how logistically I'd reset a new viv for every batch of frogs.. But that is a side issue really,I believe in what I'm doing and that I'm giving my kids the best possible chance of survival. Mortality is higher I believe with younger stock my only real evidence is with this frog,I suppose. Ok we do forums and we pick up the " newly aquired frog died post " .....averages there to favour the older frog One could dig deeper and this view is supported stateside,they influence me sure. There is almost a pricing hyrachy to reflect risk there. 

 

Things can get tricky Kev because if money rears it's ugly head then I'd say don't rear big frogs for the next guy.  

 

But Kev don't think I don't understand totally what you are saying about interrupting growth I'm unsure here how best to proceed, I'm utterly convinced that mortality is higher when moved younger,but getting to the best we can achieve doesn't involve dead frogs. How many folks might set individual vivs to say pull their new tincs out to two years  before they breed to try for max size? Or their rani out to 18 months so those ladies get as big as they can. Tubs get me there Kev ,I utterly wish it was viv space though ,can't get the jungle gym in a tub.

 

take care kiddo

 

Stu

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kevindurose    111

Stu,

Been busy building a couple of vivs so not had chance to get on line. Back in the day a lot of the old crew mostly passed tadpoles or very small frogs often in small tubs that they were being kept in for the first few weeks before going into a larger viv. in these circumstances the young frog or tadpole scarcely knows he's moved ( water chemistry dependant). I can see the possible problem when a frog gets moved from its rearing location, into a tub, spends several hours or even days in the case of foreign frog shows. It's no wonder there could be possible losses due to a move and in this case I wouldn't be surprised that a bigger frog may well do better than a real nipper. I think it's better consider all of the variables than just have rules set that everyone has to follow. There seems to be a lot of folks saying you can't move frogs until they are three months old. I'm not saying I totally disagree with this but if youve let's say a Trio of froglets in a tub and sell them to a guy that lives a couple of hours away, he takes the tub home and carries on rearing. In my opinion this is better that having a 4 month old frog that been reared in a viv that gets chucked into a tub for a 12 hour road and ferry journey before if finds its new home, that's what I call a stressful time and the sort of thing that might put a frog on the back foot. Fortunately we've probably all bought frogs that have been through this and in the vast majority of cases there are no ill effects and frogs hop into their new home and start necking fruitflies straight away. Stu I'm not saying you don't have anything there and I will be cautious when I get round to getting some mysties and factor in what you've said.

Kev

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pa.walt    26

how easy is it to sex these frogs. a frogger friend has about 3 they all look cubby. can you tell by toe pattern. by the way they stand. body shape. he did say they can over eat and get chubby. I think they are under a year.

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Stu    426

Walt body shape can be a pointer,but frankly it's that usual senario of boys call/ girls lay eggs.I find them incredibly difficult to sex !! Walt as you probably know I hang on the kids for a good while,i've actually had them breed before leaving,that's about a year old for me mate. But the usual senario is the new keeper take his frogs away and the move triggers calling,I guess males are staking a claim to the new territory,it drives me nuts because I'd really like to send the new keeper off with a pair at least. I have had males call here Joe actually saw this a couple of years back maybe,really funny watching dad and one of his sons shouting a each other,but if old enough a move oft does the trick if a male is present, around 6 month is the youngest to call here

 

Walt great group frogs,tell your mate not to let them get too fat ,they can easily, it can be disasterous. also I tend to keep the kids on the colloer side ie down low in the room,not drastically cooler than the other kids we rear,but I feel they might be a bit more sensitive to heat when young than some of the others kids we have here

not much help mate sorry,  

 

Stu

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pa.walt    26

i need to have him take pics. he did say two look chubby and one is a bit thinner. but again that doesn't mean anyting either. sometimes when i eat alot i look about 3 months pregnant and then i loose it and look only 1 month pregnant. :lol: â€‹ :huh:

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pa.walt    26

hello everyone. well my friends mystis are laying eggs and he has tads. now his problem is they are dyeing after awhile. don't know the water temp he has them in. not sure if he is pulling tads out to soon. he gets eggs, pulls from tank and gets tads. then has alive for a while and they die. maybe it could be his food choice for tads.    

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Stu    426

Walt water temps 72/74f

Food for the first two weeks plant based protein source

add the animal protein to diet after this time

is UVB plausibly provided?

 

water...... rainwater (OMG rainwater lmao) tannins/ brown stuff/ tad tea call it what ya like aldercone,boil cones in RW sieve, keep liquor dilute this into their water sort of a pale brown colour is what I'm looking for.  Useable additions elodea, oak leaf, duckweed,live grub: smaller mosi larvea and bloodworms(live!!)

 

We pull as eggs incubate at above temps feed real sparingly at first,mysties seem to be amongst the pickier tads,to me anyway,not Quite the hunters of other species,but they will and do hunt it's just a bit different to the other guys.  

 

Walt when I started we had probs here rearing these guys,I believe Allen Repashy has made a massive difference to all this. vit A twice per month no more...breeders Ca plus at each feed carotenoids might help.but the biggest thing I guess beyond absolute brill health and care of adults has to be stop the buggers,give them a rest let all those micro nutrients in the parents reaccumulate. then tell him after a good rest to start over. oh they'll take Allen's food as kids but I'm too fried to give detail right now

 

now he has just got to stop 'em

 

Hope something here might help mate. Walt i'm pushed to breaking,don't post much but very much still here, all our original mysties still here too

 

stu

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pa.walt    26
Quote

thanks stu. miss your words of frog wisdom :) my friend's frogs just started the breeding cycle. not sure how many tads he has gotten. he gave me 3 to try. the way I have them is in a 32 oz. container that I breed flies in. water unsure. the water is rainwater that turned green. I have been feeding soylent green. will try sera mycron and "tadbites".   I ask these questions for him because I am more of a computer addict then he is. think he was even a member here but he is too lazy to look up his password since tings have change on here a while back.  ;) 

 

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